2008 E350 V10 Engine chugging / rattle noise

[carringb]

Originally Posted by Mr.Anderson

It's just weird, why would the rod bearing go out for no reason like that??? Again this was a fleet maintained vehicle with a solid and regular maintenance history.

Like I mentioned... probably low oil-film strength, or outright low oil pressure, at some point due to using full-conventional 5w-20 and then not decreasing intervals.

Another cause I've seen before... oil pickup gets plugged with plastic filing from the timing chain eating the guides... because they used low-quality oil or ran it too long.

Being a fleet vehicle doesn't mean they followed scheduled very well (or at all) or that maintenance was done correctly. From the vids you posted originally, that van looks like it was ran hard and put away wet. I bought my van from Enterpise with 105,000 miles, and it looked brand-new still. And every record showed proper oil change intervals using proper Motorcraft oil.

[JWA]

Originally Posted by carringb

Being a fleet vehicle doesn't mean they followed scheduled very well (or at all) or that maintenance was done correctly.

Absolutely correct! My '05 E350 with 5.4 had but 143K miles, showed a lot of dealer maintenance by the fleet owner but things like "engine serviced", a date and mileage is all I can really determine.

Still I found my oil pressure frightfully low prompting my own reman'd engine install.

WHAT they do is important but HOW they do it and what parts or fluids were used is probably tough to determine unless an owner's records accompany the vehicle's purchase.

My '03 bought with 165K miles previously owned by a trucking company had decent records showing oil change intervals etc. That POS has over 295K miles now, and runs very well.

So there ya go.

[Mr.Anderson]

Been calling shops today about getting this install done, it's a bit of a pain in the ass talking to people because they all say "oh we'll just throw a reman in it" and then I ask, "what's included with that" and they say "I don't know and I don't have time to check, bye". Ford dealer refuses to entertain putting in stainless steel exhaust manifolds or manifold bolts even if I provided the parts and handed them to them.



But anyway, speaking of parts - I know I spoke with JW about this, also called up Jasper and asked them about it, I've compiled a list of parts which I think need to get replaced during this job given the mileage of the van and that these installs should be very easy and cheap (on labor) if the engine is out of the vehicle.



Can anyone chime in if I'm missing anything or should take something off of this list?

Thanks!


new air intake manifold
new exhaust manifolds (both sides), manifold gasket, and manifold stud bolts - the existing manifolds are not in good shape and have multiple busted bolts
new oil cooler
new PCV valve
new injectors
new coil on plugs
new thermostat
new hoses (I don't really know which ones exactly )
new belts (I don't really know which ones exactly )
new fuel pump ??
new water pump ??
wire harness??? (not sure)

[JWA]

Originally Posted by Mr.Anderson

Ford dealers will only install stock or standard Ford parts---typically they don't want the hassle of dealing with customer-supplied parts due the enormous downside that carries. Independent shops MIGHT use your stuff and and in so doing MAYBE raise their labor slightly to cover the non-standard installation. Such a shop would need to be somewhat "high performance" oriented and accustomed to working with aftermarket parts.



Can anyone chime in if I'm missing anything or should take something off of this list?

Thanks!


new air intake manifold Recommended to maintain Ford's warranty, not sure about Jasper

new exhaust manifolds (both sides), manifold gasket, and manifold stud bolts - the existing manifolds are not in good shape and have multiple busted bolts No on the new manifolds IF your's are working fine now. Manifold gaskets are included with Ford's reman'd engines, Ford stainless steel studs, nuts and washers highly recommended--Ford supplies the typical carbon steel copper plated fasteners

new oil cooler Included in Ford's package

new PCV valve Good idea regardless whose engine is used

new injectors Depending on mileage and a trusted mechanic's inspection---maybe, maybe not. DO use new o-rings if the existing injectors are used in a new intake. If the old intake is retained and the fuel rail isn't removed all should be fine as is.

new coil on plugs Not necessarily but inspect and replace as needed the boots. Plugs are included and installed but remove them, add a bit of nickel-based anti-seize and torque to 23-25 ft/lbs. Do this yourself while the engine is still in its shipping crate to assure it IS done correctly.

new thermostat Not necessary but purely optional.
Use Ford's part as it has a "open on failure" feature a lot of aftermarkep t'stats don't have.

new hoses (I don't really know which ones exactly ) Subject to inspection and whether they're damaged during engine R&R

new belts (I don't really know which ones exactly ) Just one belt, inspect and replace if older than 50K miles

new fuel pump ?? Shouldn't be necessary.

new water pump ?? Should come with the reman'd engine

wire harness??? (not sure) Not unless unforeseen handling damage occurs like the COP or injector locking tabs are rough handled and broken.

That maybe answers those questions? If you employ a worthy mechanic he'll advise you if anything needs replaced but be slightly skeptical as to his motivation---making more money on parts or doing the job correctly?

[carringb]

My Opionions

new air intake manifold If you have the metal one, have it ultrasoic cleaned and maintain proof. Line item on invoice and/or pics. If you have the plastic one, I'd just replace it

new exhaust manifoldsNormally I'd so no, but your have multiple existing broken studs, so they may be warped. At the very least, have an exhaust shop plane them before re-install

new oil cooler If it's never been replaced, scope it for debris. I do recommend a new o-ring

new PCV valvedefinitely

new injectors Hard to say since you don't know the history. You may have a shop nearby that can flow-test them, and make sure deviation isn't too excessive. Generally, old OEM injectors perform more reliably than even new aftermarket ones, but you can be flow-tested aftermarkets which are a good option as well.

new coil on plugs recommended. OEM or equivalent (AC Delco, Bosch, Denso etc)

new thermostat Leave the old one in place. They rarely fail. But shortly after my engine swap, my T-Start starting hanging before openning initially. I think a little glob of sealant or gasket plugged the orifice, so it was slow to get get hot coolant until it opened

new hoses (I don't really know which ones exactly ) Yes, since you don't know the history. New upper coolant hose, and new heater hose out of the manifold at least. These are the ones that break down from heat.

new belts (I don't really know which ones exactly ) If there's no cracking, you should be fine re-using it.

new fuel pump ?? Not necessary unless you have low pressure and already replaced the fuel filter

new water pump ??Also not necessary. They come on the Ford motors, but maybe not the jaspers. But they very rarely fail, unless the wrong coolant is used. It would be easy to inspect while out.

wire harness??? (not sure) Not necessary but some injector and COP plugs may need to be replaced, since the retaining tabs break off easy when they get old.

[Mr.Anderson]

Hi Carringb and JW - thanks for the input on those parts. I've been calling shops all around the area and have narrowed it down to two. I'm waiting to hear back from the commercial truck ford dealer but am leaning towards those guys because they definitely have a lot of experience with these engines and vans.



It definitely helps to be able to discuss all these parts, the oil cooler is definitely something they wouldn't have replaced, same thing with the air intake, and the PCV depends on the shop from whom I've called.



I'll see if I can get install pictures from the process.

[JWA]

A new oil cooler--the one mounted on the left side of the engine block---should be part of the reman'd engine package.

I do have to backtrack a bit about the intake--naturally CarringB is correct if your's is metal. On the 5.4's they're plastic which is an issue if engine had upper valve train issues causing it to be replaced. Even a thorough washing or cleaning doesn't satisfy Ford's warranty, with the 5.4's anyway.

I will repeat make sure the shop you choose has the ability, experience and desire to service the engine should any warranty issues arise---ask them their experience and how they deal with such things.

Anyway good luck---do keep us informed Mr Anderson!

[Bellpilot]

I owned a 1979 F150 with the 400 engine. The main crank bearings went out at 80,000 miles and it sounded just like your van. When the bearings started going out the oil pressure started dropping and the noise got louder. Believe it or not they were able to replace the bearings without yanking the engine. I dove the truck for another 10 years.

[Mr.Anderson]

Believe it or not they were able to replace the bearings without yanking the engine. I dove the truck for another 10 years.

I really wish it was that simple, I would love to just get the bearings replaced on not have to spend $4700 on a remanned engine.



Does anyone on here know why that can't be done on these vans / engines? Every mechanic I've spoken with says "you're screwed you need a new engine". I guess I had assumed that the cost of repairing the rod bearings would be close to or more than a new engine.

I've easily spent 10 hours this week just trying to get the job lined up already. after calling about 10 shops and dealers, I've narrowed it down to two - one dealer and one smaller shop. They're basically the same price and the smaller shop owner, while being easy to talk to and relatively honest, is also a dick who says that if I pay by credit I have to pay the 3% credit card processing fee, because he's a "mom and pop shop" ... yeah pass, that and he wants to put a Jasper in it, and after doing more research on the Jasper engines I want to just stick with Ford.


hmmm I guess I have narrowed it down to one ... maybe, if the bloody dealer could actually put together a quote that lists all the parts being replaced - I mean is that really too much to ask for?

"Hey, I'm about to give you $9000, could you tell me what I'm getting?"

[JWA]

Originally Posted by Mr.Anderson

I really wish it was that simple, I would love to just get the bearings replaced on not have to spend $4700 on a remanned engine.

Does anyone on here know why that can't be done on these vans / engines? Every mechanic I've spoken with says "you're screwed you need a new engine". I guess I had assumed that the cost of repairing the rod bearings would be close to or more than a new engine.

I'm guessing but the Modular Motors aren't conducive to being partially rebuilt where things like rod or main bearings are replaced, bolted back together and send you on your way. The economics for the shop favor swapping in a complete new engine rather than the process of rebuilding. All in all its the same amount of labor--perhaps more time on just the bearings etc---so it makes sense to install a ready-to-drive engine. That ties up the shop and a mechanic far less than rebuilding the engine.

Originally Posted by Mr.Anderson

hmmm I guess I have narrowed it down to one ... maybe, if the bloody dealer could actually put together a quote that lists all the parts being replaced - I mean is that really too much to ask for?

"Hey, I'm about to give you $9000, could you tell me what I'm getting?"

No its NOT and you should press them on this issue. Another option is to call Ford's Powertrain Warranty & Technical Hotline telling them you're considering buying one of their engines and need further information----I've found them to be knowledgeable out the wazoo to the point they know stuff the dealers have no clue about. Dealers sell whole vehicles or parts---they have little to no real knowledge with what they're pushing.

Reach those folks here: (800) 392-7946 or www.fordparts.com (I'm exploring that site as I write this---fascinating so far.) The staff there while a bit short on time will explain their products and should have a list of parts included in a reman'd engine purchase. Have your list ready and they'll probably give you a yes or no answer. If you go that route there's no need to push the dealer on what they're selling and installing.

As I've said my 5.4 arrived already filled with oil, a new oil cooler, exhaust studs and nuts, intake & exhaust gaskets, spark plugs installed and a water pump---all ready to drop in, fire it up and hit the roads. I would get clarification about the intake situation---as CarringB points out the metal versions might be cleaned and that deemed acceptable to maintain the warranty.

That brings me to another point that reman'd engines today don't require any sort of break in procedures or time periods. They've engineered the American public's lack of knowledge out of their products---they arrive already "broken in".

PLUS if the dealer installs the engine they're fully responsible as well as honoring any warranty issues that might arise. The dealer will NOT return to you any parts removed/replaced as those are part of the no-blame core process.

I would suggest demanding and keeping every receipt or invoice you pay in a hard copy, digitally if available too. When you speak to someone make notes of day, time person contacted and result---these sorts of timelines establish some degree of credibility on your part.

I'm sure I'm forgetting but you have my phone number so don't hesitate calling me if I can answer any other questions. So far it sounds like you've got this mostly under control!