6.7L Cummins conversion project

[carringb]

My V10 is not CAN-BUS.

I do think an engine/trans combo swap is the path of least resistance, esp for a 7.3L. Plus, the new diesels have come a LONG ways since the 7.3L vs the V10 which is still pretty the same its been since '99. And even that is only slightly different from the '97 version.

My dually conversion only required new hubs, since it came with the Dana 70. If it came with the 60 like most of the vans I would have needed to swap the axle. I still isn't enough though. I break the diff about every 100k miles. My carrier bearings might be going out now (last time I split the carrier in half, time before that I broke a pinion tooth off), and my diff temps get pretty hot on long climbs, so I'm hoping to upgrade to a D80.

[E350]

Dude!!!

[mgmetalworks]

Originally Posted by E350

carringb: Cool! So there will be transmission swap options for us to consider when we eventually blow up our 4R100s? I know you have a V10 which I assume is CAN-bus. But the 7.3LPSD is not CAN-bus. So my guess it is probably easier to swap both the engine and the transmission together 6.7 Cummins / Allison than to put an Allison behind a 7.3 and that is why mgmetalworks and (apparently, who knew) Quadvan is doing these types of swaps. Can't wait to hear how these types of swaps work out. Also off-topic, but did you aftermarket add the dually rear axle to your van?

You can put an Allison behind a 7.3 (Destroked sells an adapter plate and flywheel for this...maybe others do too, I only looked at Destroked's website). The Allison controller is configurable for a multitude of applications plus lots of support out there for performance parts. Of all the automatic transmissions (especially 6-speeds) out there in this light truck class, my opinion is that the Allison is the easiest of them all to work with in a swap application. I've said this before but I believe the only downside to an Allison is the cost. Everything else about it, I love.

The one thing I don't like about the Destroked adapter plate and flywheel is that they make it for the GM bellhousing...which make the trans longer and it has a thinner casting than a SAE #3 bellhousing. In a van, you need all the room you can get so an extra 1.5" of bellhousing is pushing it. Medium duty trucks with the Allison 1000/2000 series have the SAE#3.

I'm not doubting that Quadvan has done a Cummins/Allison swap (btw...any pictures or video of any of these three??) but I think it is a little misleading to say that you can just grab a Cummins/Allison out of a F650 and throw it in a van. There is a little more to it than that. At least in the newer rigs, the 6.7L out of a Ram truck is not the same 6.7L in a F650. The engine out of the Ram trucks is unique to the Ram, though it does share a lot of components with its ISB/QSB brothers. Some of the biggest differences from the conversion stand point is that the ECMs are different part numbers, calibrations are set up differently and tuning is done differently. There are some very good options for tuning 2010-up Cummins engines from Chrysler applications now that EFI Live has announced that their tuning software will support these... with medium duty applications, there is essentially one solution for tuning and it is really only available to select Cummins shops. So you either have an in with someone who has access to Insite, Incal and possibly Calterm or you live with a standard calibration from a F650....which would probably behave more like a dump truck than a pickup. Yeah, sure there are ways to make everything work just like you want them to if you go the F650 drive train route (assuming the larger rear bellhousing and rear drive accessories fit within the space you're putting them in) but I'm not convinced that you have as much flexibility, tuneability, aftermarket parts selection or adaptation options if you go with a 6.7L Cummins other than one out of a Ram truck.

One small update on where I'm at with my project... I've been buried at work for the better part of two months so not much has happened other than getting my spare frame in the shop. I've also designed a cart for setting the frame on so I can move it around easily along with a A-frame gantry for hoisting the engine/trans into place but I've simply not had time to fabricate these things so I can move forward. I'm disappointed with the pace of my project, as I'm sure some of you are too, and I'm trying to do something about that...but bills need to be paid and for the time being, I'm stuck having a J.O.B. to keep the lights on. There is one benefit to being slow though...Lots of aftermarket stuff is coming available for the new 6.7L's and it is making my integration of the electronics easier. The longer I wait, the more that seems to come out that will benefit me greatly.

[carringb]

Originally Posted by mgmetalworks

... or you live with a standard calibration from a F650....which would probably behave more like a dump truck than a pickup.

That was the main disadvantage John talked about with their setup. It is not as quick as the Ram version, and tuning beyond 360HP isn't really an option. BTW I think he said he uses a 1000 trans for fitment reasons, but the wire harness still plugs right in and the tuning still works.

Packaging wise, it doesn't look like the F650's 6.7L takes up any more hood space than the 6.8L

[mgmetalworks]

Originally Posted by carringb

Packaging wise, it doesn't look like the F650's 6.7L takes up any more hood space than the 6.8L

In some ways the V-10 and 6.0 are a tighter fit in the van than the Cummins will be. In other ways, the Cummins is a challenging fit to get right. I don't think a medium duty application ISB6.7 is the way to go though since they have rear drive and the bigger industrial bell housing (not to mention the shape of the pan is wrong for where the van cross member is). I don't believe it would fit without fairly extensive modification to the firewall/doghouse and swapping out oil pan/pick up tube parts.



just look at how much booty hangs off the back of that thing! From the back of the head to the face of the bell housing has to be like 8" of bulk fanning out in all directions. The van floor gets mighty narrow in that area... I don't see it happening without a number of other things making it totally not worth the effort. Whereas a Chrysler version will actually fit with readily available conversion parts from a number of sources. Until I see pictures of the finished product, I'll be a skeptic of the medium duty versions.

I have finally seen pictures of a 6.7L Cummins in a van frame. Destroked actually did a 2007 E-series recently. Pictures posted to their facebook page a while back.

[mgmetalworks]

Although is was a pretty good shock to the wallet, I'm pretty stoked at the outcome of the day. I now have a torque converter on its way that is specifically configured for the 6.7L Cummins/Allison combo. I also had a pretty good conversation with the owner of Destroked about fitment "challenges" in these vans. He pretty much confirmed what I was thinking about placement of the engine. I won't have as much work as he explained they went through though since I have the newer body style and more room to work with in the front.

As far as the parts go, the torque converter is the last of the "paycheck killing" items. I have what I need now to mate the engine/trans/transfercase together so time to get my hoist built and get this monster drivetrain mounted!!

So many cool things happening in the Cummins tuning scene now too. The aftermarket is just blowin' up for these new engines and the power/economy numbers are super impressive. In time they'll only get better too.

[86Scotty]

How many times have I posted

[Chance]

Originally Posted by carringb

Also, QuadVan just uses the stock controller and harness out of the F650 for doing their Cummins 6.7L-Allison conversions. I think he said they have done 3 so far, and will be doing another as soon as the E-series 4x4 backorder catches up.

I assume that is an expensive conversion. Does QuadVan have standard claims of advantages for the 6.7L and Allison? Do you suppose they market the conversion aggressively is it mostly for the few that request it?

I'm still trying to understand all viable options for those needing more power, and wonder how this would compare in cost and performance against a 3-valve V10 and 6R140 which I would think would be a much simpler conversion.

[mgmetalworks]

Originally Posted by Chance

I assume that is an expensive conversion. Does QuadVan have standard claims of advantages for the 6.7L and Allison? Do you suppose they market the conversion aggressively is it mostly for the few that request it?

I'm still trying to understand all viable options for those needing more power, and wonder how this would compare in cost and performance against a 3-valve V10 and 6R140 which I would think would be a much simpler conversion.

No offense meant here Chance but if people want to talk about Quadvan doing Cummins conversions, please make another thread to discuss how they go about it and the advantages they offer. What they're claiming to do is a lot different than what I am doing and I've outlined above how I don't think the ISB6.7 F650 drivetrain is the way to go. I don't want to confuse the two different approaches in this thread, I'd rather keep focus on my project. I'm guilty as anyone of going off on tangents so I'm not singling you out... but I only do that because I try to answer things completely and you folks have asked a lot of different questions.

I'm happy to answer questions about what I've learned in this process and discuss the fitment, electrical and cost challenges associated with my plan of attack and the services I'll eventually be offering once my conversion is done if that is what people want to talk about in here. Ok?

[Chance]

Fair enough.

I'm obviously confused at a detail level between the different options being discussed by different members. And in all honesty it's not that important for me to understand the whys of any option. I seriously doubt I'd get it anyway. I was following the thread out of technical curiosity and not because I'd build one myself.

Wish you luck with your project and hope you are successful.