6.7L Cummins conversion project

[E350]

OK a really narrow question would be this:

Us 7.3L guys are interested in adding analog EGT and Fuel Pressure sensors to Torque Pro. EGT and Fuel Pressure are not measured anywhere in the PCM on the 7.3L. And the 7.3L is not true OBDII and the 7.3L is certainly not CAN.

That said, how about this:

http://www.analog.com/en/mems-sensors/d ... index.html

(Who knew there was a domain named "analog.com"?)

For fun basic reading:

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials...tal-conversion

and

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1276974

Want to be a hero on the Ford-Trucks.com 7.3L forum? This would do it!

[Chance]

Originally Posted by mgmetalworks

There are ways to get more information than you could possibly ever want out of your vehicle and it doesn't take much money at all to get it. It does however take a certain skill set and A LOT of free time...

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm curious about your opinion on controls complexity in general. If in the future some guy tries to put a 3.2 I5 diesel and 6-speed auto from the Transit into an Econoline, would it be significantly easier than what you are doing? Would a guy be able to swap entire drivetrain with most of wiring harness and computers, or would he have to be as creative and knowledgeable as what you are doing?

By the way, great work. It's been fun following your project although at times a little discouraging seeing how difficult it would be for "non-experts" in the field of controls.

[carringb]

Originally Posted by Chance

If in the future some guy tries to put a 3.2 I5 diesel and 6-speed auto from the Transit into an Econoline, would it be significantly easier than what you are doing? Would a guy be able to swap entire drivetrain with most of wiring harness and computers, or would he have to be as creative and knowledgeable as what you are doing?

My suspicion is Ford has the 3.2L PCM pretty well locked down as well.

I think a Cummins 4BT would be MUCH simpler, and should play well with the TorqueShift transmission.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by carringb

My suspicion is Ford has the 3.2L PCM pretty well locked down as well.

I think a Cummins 4BT would be MUCH simpler, and should play well with the TorqueShift transmission.

Don't know what "locked down" implies if entire engine, transmission, wiring harness, and computer from one vehicle is moved as a unit into another.

By the way, I'm not a big fan of 4BT due to size, weight, and vibration for its normal power rating. As stated before, if I tried a project this complex (which I won't because it's more than I can handle), I'd go with the smaller 2.8L I4 or even better the 4.2L inline 6. The 6 would be more power than I would ever need and is much smaller and lighter.

[mgmetalworks]

Originally Posted by Chance

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm curious about your opinion on controls complexity in general.

No problem, I invite the conversations about this stuff. I've had so little luck finding accurate information about what I'm trying to do so if I can help someone sift through the BS that fills online forums, I'm happy to do it.

Originally Posted by Chance

If in the future some guy tries to put a 3.2 I5 diesel and 6-speed auto from the Transit into an Econoline, would it be significantly easier than what you are doing? Would a guy be able to swap entire drivetrain with most of wiring harness and computers, or would he have to be as creative and knowledgeable as what you are doing?.

Significantly easier? Hmmm.... I don't know that I'd use the word significantly but I do think it would be easier in some ways. Then again, it may be trickier in other ways.

On the positive side, if you're taking a complete drivetrain out of a Ford vehicle and placing it into another Ford vehicle, chances are the engine/trans has a similar integration into the body of the donor vehicle as the original engine has with the E-series. Comparing the service manuals side by side and the wiring diagrams side by side, I bet you'll find a lot more similarities than you'd think.

On the negative side...how are you going to change parameters in the new PCM to work with the old van? You'd probably have to change the tire size, the gear ratio, possibly VIN# (which in and of itself might be pretty difficult). I haven't used the module programming software available through the Ford website but without looking at it, I can almost guarantee that the software has limited functionality and you won't be able to do a lot of what you'd need to do. So then what? You'd have to hack the PCM. You'd have to dig in and find each of the relevant parameters and change the values using some sort of interface hardware and software that you yourself created. Can it be done? Yes. It most certainly can. Is it easy? Not really. If you're lucky, one of the open source ECU hack software packages out there would help you get to where you'd want to be but even if you could make it work, it isn't going to be as simple as plugging into the connector under the dash with a big "Change tire size" button popping up on the screen. More likely you'd be changing hexadecimal values at memory addresses that you somehow have to find within the software... (**EDIT** I'm making the assumption here that there won't be much aftermarket support for the transit drivetrain so you won't have something as convenient as EFILive or HP tuners to just plug in and use...)

Your comment about using everything from the donor vehicle and putting it into the E-series... that could be done too though you'd probably be better off to find the easiest ways to integrate the two systems. A dome light is a dome light...and a brake light is a brake light... why gut the whole van and reroute an entire harness if you can just swap wires at the fuse panels or convenient junctions?

Originally Posted by Chance

By the way, great work. It's been fun following your project although at times a little discouraging seeing how difficult it would be for "non-experts" in the field of controls.

Thanks! The most difficult part of this whole project has been getting past all of the BS on forums. Don't get discouraged, just keep digging and keep learning.

One option that you didn't mention is using a stand alone controller for the engine. In the US, diesel technology hasn't gained much momentum yet when compared to Europe. There are several companies over the pond making stand alone controllers for common rail diesels and in all reality, they're pretty inexpensive considering the complexity. For under $4000, you can get any common rail diesel running with an ECM that you have absolute FULL control over. My plan C for the Cummins was to get one of these stand alones if I couldn't get past the issues with the stock ECM. Fortunately for my wallet, I know how to use my stock ECM for my project but in the future, I may explore the stand alone a little more. As diesels increase in popularity, I'm sure you will see more options for stand alone controllers and possibly even open source solutions as well.

I like the idea of the 4bt... bulletproof, torque-y 4 cyl, that isn't as big as the 6bt... but when you really start to look at it, it becomes less and less attractive...at least for my project ideas. First off, the only thing louder than a dozen running 6.0Ls parked nose-in in a circle is a running 4bt parked in the center of that circle. Its not the smooth, precision-machine sound either. It sounds like you put a bunch of ball bearings in a paint can then put it on a shaker. It is annoyingly loud.

Second...It's like the Harley Davidson of diesel engines. Old school design, heavy, terrible power to weight ratio and poor efficiency. Why add all that weight and all that noise for "meh" performance and economy? I think people use them in swaps because they are easy...not because they're the best engine.

[Chance]

I was under the impression that if I wanted to replace my V10 with a 4.6L V8, I could just install the donor engine (and perhaps transmission in my case) along with donor PCM and it would work with minimal hassles. Is this correct, and if so, why would 3.2 diesel be all that different? Does it come down to Econoline body control unit not being able to communicate with engine computer?

And if you can get a new diesel with integrated controls (like Cummins 2.8L for use on small buses), what would happen to all Econoline body controls? Would they stop working with old V10 computer deactivated?

Not sure my questions even makes sense because modern vehicle controls are not my area of expertise. Sadly, to me mechanical issues seem easy compared to electronics.

[mgmetalworks]

Originally Posted by Chance

I was under the impression that if I wanted to replace my V10 with a 4.6L V8, I could just install the donor engine (and perhaps transmission in my case) along with donor PCM and it would work with minimal hassles. Is this correct, and if so, why would 3.2 diesel be all that different? Does it come down to Econoline body control unit not being able to communicate with engine computer?

And if you can get a new diesel with integrated controls (like Cummins 2.8L for use on small buses), what would happen to all Econoline body controls? Would they stop working with old V10 computer deactivated?

Not sure my questions even makes sense because modern vehicle controls are not my area of expertise. Sadly, to me mechanical issues seem easy compared to electronics.

The short answer is that, yes, you can swap engines in new vehicles and it would work with minimal hassles...if you knew what you were doing.

The long version is this... and I'll start at the beginning so anyone interested can follow along. Modern vehicles have a network of modules that share information on a common bus (network). There are sometimes multiple busses in the vehicle (usually meaning different data rates or message protocols). In the newer E-series vans there are two busses. The high speed bus handles information pertaining to the drivetrain, passenger restraints module, airbag module, traction control and RSC (if equipped). The medium speed bus handles things like user interfaces, stereo and navigation stuff (if equipped)... And quite honestly, I haven't dug into the MS bus yet, I don't know exactly how much of the van is really connected to the MS bus and for the sake of this discussion, it isn't that relevant.

Without looking at the manual for the exact number (depends on options), there are several modules on the HS bus that either receive information from the PCM or send information to the PCM. Some of the information is static (like the VIN#, tire size, gear ratio, etc...) and some of it is dynamic (rpm, throttle%, vehicle speed, etc...). Most of the data that needs to be broadcast on the bus in order for the whole "network" of modules to work nicely together comes from the PCM. The PCM takes some of the raw sensor input and converts it into messages that the other modules will understand so if you want to replace the PCM, you will want all of the information in the new PCM to be correct.

Now, in the case of swapping the V10 for a small V8, much of the data that needs to be broadcast will probably be available from the V8 PCM UNLESS the options packages on the vans are much different. In that case you may have too little data being broadcast to the modules expecting that data or you might have extra data being broadcast that may or may not confuse the other modules. To get around this, you reprogram all of the modules in the van to match the options of the PCM of the new engine. This can be done with the Ford VCM tool and the related software (plus subscription to the Ford module software database). The dealership probably won't do this so you'd have to get your own tool and buy your own subscription. fortunately, you're not talking about thousands of dollars, only many hundreds. Or pay an independent shop that has the tools.

If you swapped a V8 for a V10 and you got all of the modules reprogrammed to match the VIN of the new PCM, everything should work perfectly fine. Though understand that if you had every option on your van before, you'd be limited to just the options available on the new PCM. For instance, if your van had RSC and the new PCM came from a van without it, you'd no longer have RSC (and you'd possibly need an ABS module from a non-RSC van).

In the case of swapping in a totally different engine, like I'm doing with the Cummins, you need to get a few things figured out before everything will work right. First, you need to find every message on the bus that comes from the PCM and figure out what module it is intended for. Then decipher what it means and how important it is. Once you get your list of 100 or so messages decoded, then you program a microcontroller to capture data from the new engine, translate that data to the format that the modules in the van will understand and then broadcast the data just like the old factory PCM would. Same thing going the other direction... some of the modules send data to the engine...like for instance if the ABS engages, the ABS module tells the engine to defuel. So you figure out what the message looks like for that command and when the ABS sends that message, your microcontroller knows that it needs to tell the engine to defuel. The Cummins is great for this kind of stuff because it has adjustable parameters for things like this.

Your idea of the new Ford diesel in the older E-series would be kind of a hybrid of the two cases above I think. The communication protocol between the PCM of the new engine and modules in the older van might be similar. A lot of the same information may even already be programmed to come from the PCM. You never know until you start sniffing the bus... it might be very similar and conversely it could very well be very different. Since it's all Ford, I'd think that you'd see a lot of similarity between the two vehicle busses and working out a solution wouldn't be that bad. Is it going to be plug and play solution? probably not... But anything that has been engineered can be reverse engineered and made another way.

One thing to keep in mind when you're thinking about all of the complexity of these modules and engine controllers and busses is that when you get things down into their simplest forms, all that is going on is an exchange of information. It isn't super secret rocket science that only PhDs can figure out. It is a basic exchange of information from one device to another device. These aren't artificial intelligence robots from the future either. This is plain and simple one module saying "Status OK?" and the other modules replying "Affirmative" or "Negative". The software in the original module reads in the data as "If affirmative, do nothing. Else, turn on error light". If you figure out a bunch of simple messages, it doesn't matter if you spoof it with your iPhone or your laptop or reprogram the appropriate module. It is just an exchange of information in a specific format....at high speed....and in a specific sequence.

[Chance]

Thanks for taking the time to explain this part of the project in general terms. By the way, I'm personally not looking at the 3.2L; just used that as example due to it being a Ford. I'd love to have one in my Econoline but I think I would instead just buy a new Transit if it were that important.

Converting to a 4.6L V8 to improve MPG did interest me a lot but then realized fuel savings wouldn't pay for the conversion cost unless driven many miles. Based on that I'd rather have the extra power of the V10 and save myself a lot of work. If I had to replace the engine anyway, then I'd take a serious look at it again.

Thanks again for the information.

[mgmetalworks]

Originally Posted by Chance

Thanks for taking the time to explain this part of the project in general terms. By the way, I'm personally not looking at the 3.2L; just used that as example due to it being a Ford. I'd love to have one in my Econoline but I think I would instead just buy a new Transit if it were that important.

Converting to a 4.6L V8 to improve MPG did interest me a lot but then realized fuel savings wouldn't pay for the conversion cost unless driven many miles. Based on that I'd rather have the extra power of the V10 and save myself a lot of work. If I had to replace the engine anyway, then I'd take a serious look at it again.

Thanks again for the information.

No problem. Happy to help.

[boywonder]

Originally Posted by mgmetalworks

For you specifically, what is it that you want to accomplish? Diagnostics? Module programming? Manipulation of vehicle systems via the CAN bus? I'm happy to do a write up but I'd like to make sure I capture what you're interested in.

A lot of stuff can be done with free/cheap software and components. However, the deeper you want to dig, the more complicated and more expensive things get. How nerdy do you want to be?

Let's start with something most everyone here is interested in... speedo recalibration for larger tires.......